Update: Wall Street Journal is the only mainstream publication that’s noticed that while one pedobook is removed others remain (update: BNet has noticed too).
It’s a bit difficult now because the wave of momentum has gone from ‘outrage’ to ‘the book has been pulled’. If all the articles had approached it as a bunch of books it would have gotten them all removed – Now that one single book has taken the fall.
Don’t know what to do about it. It doesn’t help that the removed book is particularly loathsome (a how to guide) and the remaining ones are a bit more vague (but behind the vagueness they are still just as digusting).
Update: It seems there are a few more very questionable books being sold at Amazon – this time not in the Kindle Store. These books attempt to be rather obtuse in their descriptions (and succeed to varying degrees) but it’s pretty clear they are probably illegal.
Check out the comments for a few titles. Thanks to Eiresicilia for pointing out that the pulled book isn’t the only one.
Actually, here’s a list -
- http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0967699703/ref=cm_cr_mts_prod_img
- http://www.amazon.com/Loving-Boys-Vol-Edward-Brongersma/dp/1557410038/ref=sid_dp_dp
- (Obtuse but seems illegal) http://www.amazon.com/Male-Intergenerational-Intimacy-Socio-Psychological-Perspectives/dp/0918393787/ref=tag_stp_s2f_edpp_url
- http://www.amazon.com/were-NOT-abused-David-Riegel/dp/0967699738/ref=tag_stp_s2f_edpp_url. A book titled ‘We were NOT abused’ by the author of 1.
Agree with people who feel that Freedom of Speech should apply unless it’s illegal stuff. Well, it all seems very illegal – My understanding is so much as touching a kid inappropriately is illegal. The first two books above should definitely fall into the category of incitement to do illegal acts. The third is hard to categorize.
In any case it’s Amazon’s decision to sell these books or not. It’s their call on what harm a book might do.
Here’s a review of the Loving Boys trash from someone who’s probably a pedophile -
Anti-boylovers and anti-girlovers should read this book, they will see that boylovers and girlovers ar gentle, caring people.
Everyone should consider someday becoming a bl or gl.
Someday this book will be a standard text in school.
In the name of freedom of speech we have an illegal act being encouraged and criminals getting encouraged. Having this book available lets this ‘whatever’ dream about a time when pedophile books will be standard texts in school. It’s all very disappointing.
***************Update
This is mostly in response to a comment below. This is not a cursade or an attack or anything of the sort. This is a Kindle Blog – there’s zero reason for me to do anything against Amazon.
It’d just be good to know where Amazon Stands -
- Amazon will sell anything and everything.
- Amazon will not sell pedophile-supporting books.
- Amazon will not sell pedophile-supporting books that people complain about.
- Something else.
There’s a legal stance here and there’s Amazon’s stance. It’d be good to know where Amazon stands and what it thinks the legal position is on books that suggest abusing children is not bad.
The botched-up response i.e. we leave it up to the customer. The subsequent right decision (in my opinion) to pull the book. Now, finding out that there are lots of other pedophile apologist books like the first one.
It’s all very confusing – Why is Amazon removing one illegal book supporting pedophiles and keeping the others?
************************************
Old Post:
It’s been quite an interesting half a day -
- People found a pedophile guide in the Kindle Store.
- There was a twitter storm and a lot of complaints. There were over 1,000 reviews against the book despite some being removed.
- It got a ton of coverage everywhere – newspapers, blogs, even TV supposedly.
- There was some ‘freedom of speech’ defence from some people which misconstrues both freedom and speech. What about freedom to protect our children?
- Amazon sent out some stock response which it probably has on script for when someone complains about an actual freedom of speech related thing.
- The protests got louder and louder and the pedophile book hit the Kindle Bestsellers list as people tried to figure out just how messed up it really was.
- Amazon pulled the plug on it.
We live in a world where people like to argue against anything. It’s remarkable that people would defend a pedophile guide - Luckily we don’t have to worry about some super-intelligent intricate defence of pedophile stuff because it’s illegal.
Takeaways
5 quick takeaways for me -
- A lot of respect for the people who were willing to boycott Amazon and switch their Kindle or stop buying from Amazon – even though it would be very inconvenient. It’s just absolutely great to see people stand up for what, in any civilized society, would be considered the right thing.
- This highlights the need to have a Nook and an iPad and a Sony Reader as options. A single company, in any area, getting too much power is a terrible thing.
- It’s disappointing to see people use defences like ‘it only gives the book publicity’ and ‘its freedom of speech’. You have to draw the line somewhere and we’re already not giving our next generation a good-enough education (recent budget cuts, etc.) or a healthy economy (all over the world there are collapses and debts) or any sort of sustainable energy solution (don’t know if it’s possible). The least we can do is make sure they are safe and get a proper childhood.
- Corporations are very different entities from humans.
- Customers control everything now. The customer may or may not be always right but the customer always decides who wins and who stays in business. There’s little doubt from the responses that people would have made Nook the eReader of Christmas 2010 if Amazon hadn’t pulled the book. A lot of people were willing to boycott Amazon and quite frankly no company can survive a mass boycott.
The last point is critical – In my opinion it’s absolutely great that customers control everything now. Personally, I’d trust a kindle owner or a common person much more than any corporation or government.
There’s an old joke that people are always willing to talk about their health and their children. Well, those are the two things dearest to most people and not necessarily in that order.
We can construct elaborate rationalizations for what we’re meant for but in the end you can only leave behind your kids and your legacy through what you do. In a few hundred years only a few authors and a few scientists are going to be remembered – but everyone’s kids and nephews and nieces and descendants will be there. The human race’s immortality is through our children.
It’s interesting that instead of colonizing new planets and focusing on sustaining the Earth we’re caught up in things like American Idol and who can make the most targeted ads. However, the strength and ferocity and the sheer numbers of people who protested against the pedophile book shows that most people’s hearts are in the right place.
If we could have this attitude amongst the governments and big companies – this focus on children and the future – we’d have another planet to live on within 50 to 100 years and the Earth would be well taken care of too.
People are getting all the power now – so it’s going to happen. It’s getting rid of one pedophile book today – in a few years it’ll be a rocket to Mars. Hopefully in another 25 to 50 years we will have started making another planet habitable for humans and in 75 to 100 years we will have two worlds instead of one. Instead of all these corrupted by power Wall Street vampire squids and narrow minded ‘who can make the most targeted ads’ Silicon Valley jokers we need the mothers and fathers and uncles and aunts of the world to take over.
Filed under: thoughts Tagged: | disappointed, hopeful
now you need to tell people to THANK AMAZON for this move!!!!
thank Amazon?
They waffled too long. It should have been done before it got all blown up.
another sad note though: if people didn’t protest, amazon.com wouldn’t take this necessary action. just because they’re afraid it would affect their sales they did it. where is your conscience amazon.com? what just happened really proves me nothing more than profit-oriented giant institution with very little (if nothing at all) care for morality.
Amazon censoring books is bad.
I don’t know what is the reason that Amazon considered to remove this book. It could be: a) It is an illegal content, b) It is an objectionable content, c) pressure from people.
If it is a), OK (and somebody has to be prosecuted for this). If it is b) or c), bad.
In b) or c), Amazon should warn people about the content, before seeing it and/or verify viewer’s age.
I think the book in question was illegal and I agree with the removal. But that is what I think. I want Amazon to tell us if that was the case.
If it was not the case, first we should worry about our law, and then worry about the censoring of content.
: ( There’s more http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0967699703/ref=cm_cr_mts_prod_img
That’s really bad. Amazon should remove all these books. Think it’s time they did an audit and removed all the illegal pedophile books they have. Someone found a book published by some pedophile association and this one you’ve mentioned is just as bad.
It’s getting a little tougher to classify these as illegal – The author is probably going to argue it’s a book about understanding as opposed to promoting pedophilia. I’m reluctant to buy it to figure out exactly what it’s saying.
Wonder if these would be classified as trying to motivate people to do illegal acts or trying to condone something that is illegal. That might be the best way to go about removing them.
Also, there are lots of shades of grey.
This book clearly seems illegal – http://www.amazon.com/Loving-Boys-Vol-Edward-Brongersma/dp/1557410038/ref=sid_dp_dp
This book is either actually research or hiding behind a facade of research – http://www.amazon.com/Male-Intergenerational-Intimacy-Socio-Psychological-Perspectives/dp/0918393787/ref=tag_stp_s2f_edpp_url
Amazon really needs to come out and spell out a policy and take a stand. It’s not good to hide behind freedom of speech – Amazon clearly makes a call on which books it sells.
Amazon has a right to “censor” what it sells, it’s a private business. Should Amazon be compelled to publish anything submitted to it? Even illiterate scribblings? Of course not. Standards, as well as moral and legal issues, are relevant. To the point, Amazon certainly has guidelines covering what they won’t sell, and this book did not even meet their standards.
@impy,
It’s a great relief that the book was pulled, but Amazon doesn’t deserve thanks for it; pulling the book doesn’t fully address (remedy) their offense.
Amazon also owes an apology — for their failure to recognize that the book was not in compliance with their own stated guidelines, for publishing and distributing the offensive material, for their inaction (and for defending their inaction) when they refused to pull it after being made aware of the problem, for the hours of delay when they finally did agree to pull it, and, too, for their profiting from the sale of the book. No “thanks” is due to Amazon; we are still due an apology from them.
But let’s not forget the matter of the “ill-gotten” gains…the profits gained only after offense was given, complaints began to flow, and media attention became focused. Amazon should not compound the original offense by keeping those profits or handing them to the author; instead, a donation to a worthy children’s cause would be appropriate — and with that, they can have some thanks.
If they really want to “remedy” the situation, they could also fire the idiot who made the decision to refuse to pull the book when the issue first came up.
Yeah, that would be about right.
For clarification, in referring to profits, I meant Amazon’s profits.
[...] trying to do (push for legitimacy for pedophiles). Check out the comments on this other post for 2 obviously illegal examples and 1 borderline illegal [...]
Well, now that we are starting a crusade against illegal “things”, then we should ask for the George W. Bush book to be pulled from Amazon too, since he is a criminal of war, that invaded a country based on false pretenses. A war that has cost the world trillions of dollars and the lives of tens of thousands of men, women and many, many, many children and babies.
I am kidding of course, my point is where should Amazon draw the line?
It’s not a crusade.
I don’t know where Amazon should draw the line. It’s up to them to say what their stand is.
A commenter pointed out that the pulled book wasn’t the only pedophile book available at Amazon. My first, and in effect only, loyalty is to my readers. There’s no way for me to pretend that someone hasn’t mentioned the book and to deny that the issue has gone from closed to open again.
Amazon could say –
1) We will sell anything and everything.
OR
2) We will not sell any books supporting pedophiles.
OR
3) We will sell books supporting pedophiles unless people threaten to boycott us.
It doesn’t matter – as long as they pick one and we know where they stand.
This has nothing to do with being Republican or Democrat so lets not confuse matters.
Hi Switch,
Let me begin by saying that I enjoy your site very much, keep up the good work!
I am not an American, not Canadian either, I am just trying to make a point that for many people George W. Bush is a despicable human being which shouldn’t be allowed to sell a book. As despicable as a pedophile, maybe even more despicable if we take into account the number of deaths he is responsible for.
So, where should Amazon draw the line? Pedophiles are NOT OK, war criminals are?
Again, just trying to make a point that if Amazon begins to ban certain subjects, then it could be a never ending story for them trying to make certain groups of people happy. Though I have to agree with you, the pedophile issue is a tough one for anyone to defend unless they are mentally ill.
I love my Kindle, but I guess this is one of the drawbacks of the ebook phenomenon, any jackass can write a book and get it published. So my guess is this will not be an isolated incident, and we will have more books in the future dealing with controversial subjects.
@KindleLover,
Amazon had already drawn the line, their line…via publishing guidelines. The first line they crossed was their own.
But, notably, from those same guidelines, Amazon also implied that they share and adhere to a societal line, a moral line. But this was the second line crossed…a broad-scaled leap of obscenity leading to shock, to offense, to outrage, and finally, to the Great Hullabaloo. (Where most of us seem to find ourselves.)
Still, not to leave any stone unturned in this line-hunt, there is yet another, a possible third, that has been crossed by Amazon, that being the legal line…
The point being, lines were drawn. (All kidding aside.
Seriously, comparing former president Bush to pedophiles ludicrous!
I love my Kindle 3 & will continue to use the devise. I’ve been able to upload ebooks from other sources and used a program Calibre (free) to convert ebooks enabling an upload to my Kindle device. I felt like I had a personal relationship with Amazon for years, I think that’s why “their behavior” has been so upsetting. There are so many nasty places creeps like that can go, I don’t see why Amazon chooses to be one of them. Maybe Amazon should issue a warning that information will be made available to child protection agencies. A sting operation is their only excuse.
Free Speech does not mean free from consequences. Boycotts are also part of free speech and the right Americans have. Often people forget that part of free speech.
Amazon is a business not a blog
PS
Having a books by a politicians that I disagree with their politics is not even remotely the same thing. It should not even have been brought up in the conversation.
What about the rights of children? Don’t they have a right to go through a childhood without abuse or malice?
Eiresicilia, i agree I’ve had what felt like a personal buying from Amazon for many years. I am not sure they were actually looking at the complaints but giving the same Free speech pat answers they are told to without taking it to a person higher up in the company
As usual, people have misconstrued what free speech in the 1st Amendment means. It applies to government censorship of speech only. Private citizens and private companies can and should make moral values judgements about products and services.
The Declaration of Independence describes our freedoms and independence from an oppresive ruler. The Constitution lays out the laws that government has to follow, in other words, all power is with the people and the states except for what the Constitution allows the federal government to do.
Amazon was wrong for allowing the book to be sold in the first place and wrong again for not pulling it immediately when the first complaints were logged. Their punishment is a tarnished reputation and perhaps loss of business. Who wants to give their child a Kindle if it provides access to such questionable material?
Also, if they were wise, they would provide filters and parental controls so that parents can censor what their children have access to.
Hmmm, I guess Amazon is not the only “immoral” retailer out there…
According to Fox News:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/11/11/pedophile-guide-author-confident-title-return-amazon/
“Titles like “Diary of a Pedophile,” “Father Pedophile,” “The ‘Pedophile’ Sham: Undermining the Torah Matrix” and “Fun With Pedophiles, The Best of Baiting” were readily available on Borders.com, BarnesandNoble.com or Amazon.com as of early Thursday, less than a day after Amazon apparently removed Greaves’ title.
Don’t know what to say. It’s really unfortunate that these stores aren’t being more careful.
Hi Switch,
I have a gripe with Amazon I wanted to share with you. Maybe you know the reason why this is or can write about it on one of your posts.
Many of the free books (other than the out of print ones) are not available for international Kindle owners.
Take for example ” Brains: How They Work and What that Tells Us About Who We Are [Kindle Edition]” by Dale Purves. This book is currently being given away for free to US Kindle owners, but for foreign customers they want us to dish out $31.99!!!
OK, I understand that Amazon needs to pay for the mobile roaming charges, and very likely these are much higher elsewhere that in the US, but come on. In these cases they should give international customers the option of paying $2 to $3 in order to cover the roaming charges instead of shutting us out.
What do you think?
Well, in some countries the books are offered for $2 or so.
Often, the book rights are different by territory. So one publisher buys it for the US and Canada, another for UK, another for Asia. So quite often the Publisher promoting it in US doesn’t have rights in UK.
Also, US is the market with the biggest ebook market share so it’s worthwhile here for Publishers to offer free book offers.
Things will get better gradually – notice how Amazon is adding stipulations that to get 70% Publishers must release books in all markets they have rights for etc.
For all the folks who are yelling for books about illegal activity to be pulled, what about the following:
“The White Man’s Bible”. It’s a hateful white supremacist tract with a chapter titled “Who Needs Niggers? or, Elimination of the Black Plague.”
What about “Bazooka: How To Build Your Own”?
or
“Unconventional Warfare Devices and Techniques: Incendiaries Tm 31-201-1″ that teaches how to make your own fire bombs?
and what about
“The Agenda” which promotes hatred and hate crimes against gay people?
It’s a slippery slope… (thanks to http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2010/11/11/is-amazoncom-racist-homophobic-and-providing-comfort-and-information-to-terrorists for those links).
hmmm…I wonder if books will be heading down the same path that other forms of entertainment (movies, video games) forged for themselves – the ratings system. Unfortunate, but inevitable it seems.
That’s a very interesting thought. It does seem inevitable.
Everyone is naive to believe that censorship is not going on everyday. Think about all the Big Publishing Houses and the millions of book manuscripts they’ve rejected, refused to publish, thrown into the trash. Are they not “censoring”?
If Amazon draws the line against illegal activities, it wouldn’t be any different than what Big Publishing Houses do and other respectable companies like Apple that do not accept iphone apps that display child porn.
I forgot to add that Steve’s Job’s reasoning was simply that we’re not going to have “such and such” type of app on our iphones. Simple as that. He doesn’t have to do a big song or dance to justify his stance. It’s not like he is a politician that needs to bend to the will of the people or win a popularity contest. Amazon could do the same and just say, “We’re not going to publish books that teach people to get into pedophilia” and leave at that. It won’t open the door to over reaching censorship. Come that day, believe me– people will also hold them accountable for crossing that line.
Yeah – say what you will about too much control – Apple does a good job of keeping the trash out.
What we don’t see or feel, doesn’t hurt us.
Valid point, but, I would think most books get rejected because they do not see a business opportunity in them, not so much on the basis of censorship.
I’ve been thinking a lot about this issue…
Let me first say that I find the content of these books objectionable, and they may very well be illegal. And, if a company isn’t doing something you like, you don’t have to buy their products.
But, in the middle of calling something illegal, and calling for it to be banned, remember the most famous “illegal” document in American history, the Declaration of Independence. What if the outcry had been “it’s illegal, boycott the newspapers publishing it.”
Again, I won’t be buying or reading any pedobooks, but I do consider very carefully just what freedom of speech means, and where we would be without it.
Will think about that. It’s a very hard question.
It’s an interesting interplay of where a company stands on principles and how its customers react to those.